Can algae damage my roof is a question that gets answered differently on a daily basis, just like as noted above. The question becomes more about the evidence, common sense and the science over the source. Algae is also a somewhat "loose" term. The black streaks are actually Gloeocapsa magma and may resemble "algae" in that they are green, but they are actually a cyanobacteria.
First I think it’s important to understand how a roofing shingle is made. Without getting into the technical side of things the basics of a roofing shingle are: A base sheet, usually made from fiberglass, is saturated with molten asphalt. This molten asphalt generally consists of a large amount of filler (limestone dust). Then protective granules are added to the top. A very basic explanation but this is how most asphalt roofing shingles are generally made. Although I can’t stand the way this lady pronounces “Ashphalt” there is a video that helps see the process in action which can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ7VQmgosyU.
I have seen many articles where the authors state that algae do not harm roofing shingles. In those same articles I will see some sort of comment on the alga living off the limestone or “filler” as it is often referred to. I recently read an article by a Chicago reporter who often writes about home improvements. As such you would think his articles would be based more on fact and filled with truth and helpful insight. Instead, I believe, his article was filled with contradictions. I found myself wondering how any homeowner, or commercial property owner, could make an informed decision when faced with such articles……which ultimately inspired me to write this article. As you read on I want you to use your own sense of what really makes sense.
In his article the writer states (referring to the black streaks on your roof): “It's a harmless algae that's gorging itself on the powdered limestone filler that's often added to the liquid asphalt in shingles to help add weight to them.”
As I read his statement I found myself wondering how the author could find the algae as “harmless” while in the same breath he states “gorging itself on the powdered limestone filler”. So the algae are gorging themselves on my roof but they are harmless? This same author went on to make the statement “……..manufacturers had a problem getting the shingles up to the minimum weight requirement. Someone decided to use powdered limestone dust -- but they didn't realize that it was a delectable food for the tiny algae. Fortunately, the algae doesn't harm the shingles” Again stating the limestone dust was a food source for the algae then stating the algae does not hurt the shingles.
My question to the author of that article would simply be; how can you admit the algae eat the limestone dust yet state they do no harm to the shingle?
First we need to ask: what is the purpose of the limestone dust? The limestone dust is used, as the author states, to add the needed weight to the shingles. So if the algae eat away the limestone they are therefore removing the needed weight. Further, according to Carmeuse, a company that provides the limestone filler to asphalt roofing manufacturers, the limestone filler is used to increase durability and flame retardancy (source http://www.carmeusena.com/markets/markets-milled-limestone/roofing-shingles). If you allow the algae to “gorge” on the limestone then you are allowing them to remove the durability and flame retardancy as well….thereby harming the shingles (Not to mention being downright ugly).
Now let us go back to how a roofing shingle is made. Remember that the limestone filler is added to the molten asphalt and then the protective granules are added over the top of this molten layer. So, what do you suppose will happen if the limestone dust is eaten away from the manufactured asphalt shingle?
What happens when you take a bite out of an apple? You leave a hole in the apple. What happens when the algae take a bite out of the limestone? They leave a hole in the shingle.
What happens when you put sprinkles on top of an ice cream cone? You get a delicious treat. What if you don’t like sprinkles and you eat all of the ice cream? The sprinkles fall to the ground….much like your protective granules.
So let me ask you one final question: Can algae damage my roof?
Cajun Soft Wash serves the Greater Baton Rouge metro area with safe – no pressure, roof and exterior cleaning.
-- Edited by Doug Gore on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 08:53:04 AM
Mike Wedge said
May 6, 2014
Nice work Doug,
Very informative and easy to understand. I can see why Cajun Soft Wash is quickly becoming the premier SoftWash company for Louisiana.
Jim Prom said
May 6, 2014
Your future's so bright, you gotta wear shades! Great job and way to think about food chain of the GM.
Shaun Harton said
May 6, 2014
Great info Doug. Thanks
Bill Booz said
May 8, 2014
That's a great read Doug. But the first question actually is does gloeocapsa magma feed off of limestone or calcium at all? You will find that a lot of reputable sources claim so. But I challenge you to find a peer reviewed study that supports that claim. I've looked for one for 5 years and have many. Non make that claim though some do make a correlation.
Doug G said
May 8, 2014
Bill Booz wrote:
That's a great read Doug. But the first question actually is does gloeocapsa magma feed off of limestone or calcium at all? You will find that a lot of reputable sources claim so. But I challenge you to find a peer reviewed study that supports that claim. I've looked for one for 5 years and have many. Non make that claim though some do make a correlation.
Bill......as with anything else, there needs to be enough attention placed on any issue before the "studies" are done. The evidence is there every single day and as you pointed out there are a lot of reputable sources stating gloeocapsa magma eats limestone......which puts me at the same point I made to you before.
1+1 generally = 2
Micheal Pumphrey said
May 8, 2014
What has been pointed out is exactly why I don't have the confidence in roof cleaning I once had. A lot of it is he said - she said. It's hard to find any concrete proof any of this stuff is true
That being said I still softwash buildings. Just don't push roof cleaning like I used to
Jesse Bracken said
May 8, 2014
My neighbor has a letter from his insurance company stating that due to growth on his roof he must replace it or they will dump him. That is reason enough for me to push roof cleaning. I asked him for a copy of it to share with you all. They are a little older and not sure they should "make waves" but I am working on him to let me speak with his agent.
Hopefully they let me clean the roof for them rather than replace it. Its not horrible and doesn't leak so I'm hopeful.
Doug G said
May 8, 2014
Hey Jess....maybe the letter with the names and address blocked out?
Bill Booz said
May 8, 2014
Sorry Doug but that's not true. There are many studies on Cyanobacteria, Gloeocapsa Magma and variants, that examine their habitat and growth cycle. As I stated above one makes a correlation to limestone rocks it was growing on. That study is from the 1700's. So it has been examined for hundreds of years. You just have to look outside the world of roof cleaning. We have seen a correlation to it growing on roofs. But there is much evidence that calcium or like has nothing to do with it. It grows on metal and rubber roofs as well. If it needs calcium as a food source how is it obtained on these other surfaces? Also of calcium is a filler with he asphalt how does the algae penetrate the shingle to get to it? And how can our solution soak into the bedding of the shingle to kill it? (Of course it doesn't) Also shingles from before the change grow it as well. Also it has grown on roofs made of slate and other surfaces in Europe for over 500 years and is well documented there. Also it grows on wood. So please explain the evidence and daily proof we have to me.
Bill Booz said
May 8, 2014
Lime was auto corrected to like up there.
Bill Booz said
May 8, 2014
Also as I said above many credible sources make the claim about calcium or lime. Such as a recent Angie's list article. And a paper from the university of Florida. But these are not studies. They are just articles and papers written without sources to prove the statements. The Angie's list article statements came directly for a roof cleaner. It's become a 'everyone says it so it must be true' situation.
Ray Burke said
May 9, 2014
One of the things I tell my customers about the potential damage is something like this ... " think of the algae on your roof like a moldy loaf of bread; it starts a little green and then all of a sudden other different type things pop-up on there. You get the splotchy white moldy spots, the deep green circles, golden collored fungi, etc. Essentially the roof is not too different in that the GLeocaspa Magma creates a nice warm, moist environment that allows a plethora of other biological lifeforms to grow there...lichen, mold, mildew, etc."
There is absolute documented fact pictures out there that the lichens can and will cause degranulaztion.
Now that being said, i try not to oversell roof cleaning as "adding years to the life" or " saving" or even "killing mold". Due to licensure issues I really want his field to be though of as a cosmetic fix. In florida, mold abetment is a huge field, and one that is strictly licensed. I would never want to make a claim that we kill mold, even though we do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: we need to be somewhat careful about making claims of what we do, what causes the issues we cure, etc. One of the unintended and unwanted consequences of these actions could suddenly be unwanted/unneeded regulation of our industry. Which then opens up a whole new can of worms. The "fly by nighters" will still operate outside the law, and the honest, reputable companies such as ours will be faced with a whole new level of bearucracy/regualtion/ rules.
Be careful of what we claim and providing too much information as to what we do. Just even the heading of this thread could be taken the wrong way...."does algae damage my roof?" if the answer is YES, and we are killing that algae to stop damage, in essence "repairing a roof", then I could make the argument that we should be licensed roofers to carry out our trade. I don't think we want that!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:34:54 AM
Doug G said
May 9, 2014
Ray Burke wrote:
One of the things I tell my customers about the potential damage is something like this ... " think of the algae on your roof like a moldy loaf of bread; it starts a little green and then all of a sudden other different type things pop-up on there. You get the splotchy white moldy spots, the deep green circles, golden collored fungi, etc. Essentially the roof is not too different in that the GLeocaspa Magma creates a nice warm, moist environment that allows a plethora of other biological lifeforms to grow there...lichen, mold, mildew, etc."
There is absolute documented fact pictures out there that the lichens can and will cause degranulaztion.
Now that being said, i try not to oversell roof cleaning as "adding years to the life" or " saving" or even "killing mold". Due to licensure issues I really want his field to be though of as a cosmetic fix. In florida, mold abetment is a huge field, and one that is strictly licensed. I would never want to make a claim that we kill mold, even though we do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: we need to be somewhat careful about making claims of what we do, what causes the issues we cure, etc. One of the unintended and unwanted consequences of these actions could suddenly be unwanted/unneeded regulation of our industry. Which then opens up a whole new can of worms. The "fly by nighters" will still operate outside the law, and the honest, reputable companies such as ours will be faced with a whole new level of bearucracy/regualtion/ rules.
Be careful of what we claim and providing too much information as to what we do. Just even the heading of this thread could be taken the wrong way...."does algae damage my roof?" if the answer is YES, and we are killing that algae to stop damage, in essence "repairing a roof", then I could make the argument that we should be licensed roofers to carry out our trade. I don't think we want that!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:34:54 AM
Bill will obviously argue this thing to death and he is in the industry. It is a portion of my argument.....It's answered differently on a daily bases. I can only provide opinions by respected and reputable sources but in the end it wont change any of his views.
Now, the way Ray takes this on is just another reason Ray Burke Rocks! Thanks for the insight Ray!
Brandon Vaughn said
May 9, 2014
Ray Burke wrote:
One of the things I tell my customers about the potential damage is something like this ... " think of the algae on your roof like a moldy loaf of bread; it starts a little green and then all of a sudden other different type things pop-up on there. You get the splotchy white moldy spots, the deep green circles, golden collored fungi, etc. Essentially the roof is not too different in that the GLeocaspa Magma creates a nice warm, moist environment that allows a plethora of other biological lifeforms to grow there...lichen, mold, mildew, etc."
There is absolute documented fact pictures out there that the lichens can and will cause degranulaztion.
Now that being said, i try not to oversell roof cleaning as "adding years to the life" or " saving" or even "killing mold". Due to licensure issues I really want his field to be though of as a cosmetic fix. In florida, mold abetment is a huge field, and one that is strictly licensed. I would never want to make a claim that we kill mold, even though we do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: we need to be somewhat careful about making claims of what we do, what causes the issues we cure, etc. One of the unintended and unwanted consequences of these actions could suddenly be unwanted/unneeded regulation of our industry. Which then opens up a whole new can of worms. The "fly by nighters" will still operate outside the law, and the honest, reputable companies such as ours will be faced with a whole new level of bearucracy/regualtion/ rules.
Be careful of what we claim and providing too much information as to what we do. Just even the heading of this thread could be taken the wrong way...."does algae damage my roof?" if the answer is YES, and we are killing that algae to stop damage, in essence "repairing a roof", then I could make the argument that we should be licensed roofers to carry out our trade. I don't think we want that!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:34:54 AM
Amen to this Ray.
My 2 cents on this subject - I just did some work for a gentleman who's roof was 30 years old (3-tab asphalt shingle roof) - and his roof was immaculate. No granule loss, no nothing. It seriously almost looked new.
When I asked him about it, he said he has been spraying bleach on it 1/x year every year since he put the roof on it. His next door neighbor had a different story on his roof, with the roof edges curled, shingles cracked, and moss had taken over more than 50% of the roof. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or peer reviewed studies to understand the concept of what decomposers do to ANY surface they grow on. Decomposers are designed to break down materials back into nature.
We should undersell anytime we can, for not only the reasons Ray mentioned - but it is overall better for your business. We use our experiences and the experiences of others to build our confidence that what we offer is a worthwhile service - and that confidence also translates into our pitch to a customer.
It is when fly-by-nighters make large claims that leaves a customer (or any naysayer) needing "proof" by scientists to back it up.
-- Edited by Brandon Vaughn on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:08:27 PM
Ray Burke said
May 9, 2014
Brandon Vaughn wrote:
It is when fly-by-nighters make large claims that leaves a customer (or any naysayer) needing "proof" by scientists to back it up.
Look no further than the herbal supplement/nutritional aid field and see where boastful claims can get you. Now they are under FDA scrutiny and have labeling requirements.
Don't get me wrong, I am all about training, teaching, and building a better professional cleaning community. Despite what anyone thinks, " pro staff" is not a paid position, I do this because I love you guys and want to see each and every one of you meet your own personal goals!
This would be a very tough field to study, much less regulate. Think about it, you have roofs that are literally next door to each other, Same age house, same builder, same shingle manufacturer, but some roofs are covered in algae others are at the beginning stages of infestation, some are not infested at all.
Now think about regulation. EPA already hammers some cleaning guys in metro markets with run-off issues. Could you begin to imagine the headaches associated with governmental regulation with our soft wash industry? I think it would be a nightmare. And sadly there would always be the "Chuck in a Truck" (Thanks Eric Owen for the best catch phrase ever!) who would be more than happy to operate outside the law. Honest companies who are in it for the long haul, such at SoftWash Systems authorized guys would really suffer. We would be compelled to "toe the line" while "Chuck" would splash and dash, since he only does this on the side when his lawn care business gets slow.
Its hard to "quantify" what we do with numbers, but it easy to "qualify" what we do with pictures, especially when the homeowner is willing to spend 10-25K on a new roof that is perfectly good, but just covered in GM. Thats who your target market should be!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 07:31:00 PM
Steve Salley said
May 9, 2014
I appreciate the exchange of ideas in this thread. What we will take away, is not to oversell the biology of what is going on, but the fact when we are done your roof will look like new.
We have every confidence that a lot of homeowners we work for are happy to know the roof damage has been stopped for now, and along the way the curb appeal has been restored to their homes.
Bill, you are correct in pointing out this process happens on other surfaces too, including concrete surfaces. The evidence that this attack does destroy the appearance of shingle roofs and resulting granule loss is visible when lichen etc is removed, makes the conclusion we are arresting a process that does damage to shingles and other surfaces hard to ignore when we all see it on a daily basis.
Besides, it is downright ugly before and so much more pleasing to the homeowners when the ugly has been removed.
If the only benefit our neighbors are getting is pride of ownership of a clean home back, that is a good day's work.
Besides, it is downright ugly hanging on everything in town and dirtying the overall appearance of our towns and cities.
Some of best moments in sales is when I get to sell the next door neighbor, not on science but the fact their neighbors roof and house shined up like a new copper penny.
All they know is they think it is downright ugly and then want it gone! And now, they know who to call!
Folks trust PAsoftwash to restore their homes curb appeal today!
Besides, their homes are beautiful when we leave, and that is why they love us!
Thank you for giving us the tools and knowledge to make this possible in our little part of Western PA!
Bill Booz said
May 9, 2014
Ray you are spot on brother. Also I would be concerned that the roofing manufacturers themselves may seem harm in this claim. Imagine if a group of people where to sue the shingle manufacturers for selling algae resistant shingles that are actually feeding algae. Without real proof many of us would be liable to lawsuits from the manufacturers for perpetuating the claims in the first place.
Doug I am sorry you feel that way. I think you may have perceived some form of negative attitude from my posts when my intention was only to present the things I have learned through a lot of hard work gathering credible information. It grows on roofs with calcium fillers is only a correlation until proven otherwise. The Earth also appears flat and for a long time everyone believed it was, but due to the process of trying to disprove what we believe to be true we know the truth, that it is round. I know that sounds silly but it's really how we prove things scientifically. Originally I challenged you to present some actual evidence that algae needs calcium or lime as a food source. I have taken that challenge on myself for almost five years. Will you accept that humans are naturally biased to believe what we want, and do the due diligence to create proof for your belief? I don't want to argue with you at all. I want you to challenge yourself to fully understand what your claiming.
Also if I did not mention this before. Calcium is absorbent and holds moisture longer than nonporous surfaces. Due to this it may be feasible that the shingle made with calcium could hold moisture longer than one not made with calcium. This could potentially promote the growth of photosynthetic organisms. Further research to see if the calcium in a shingle is actually exposed to moisture and if a shingle made with calcium actually retains moisture longer than one not made with calcium needs to be conducted in order to better understand if this is possible. This experiment could easily be done by any of us and would be a step in the right direction to find out if these claims are true.
Here are a few resources: www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/html/FSEC-PF-293-95/
In this field research report, the researchers are testing solar reflectivity of various roof coatings. In the paragraph I have copied and pasted they where testing a corrugated metal roof with an elastometric coating. This type of coating for a roof is generally composed of Urethane.
Quoted from the above source: 'Researchers have been re-examining the roof solar reflectance of the coated field sites every six months. The observed degradation in solar reflectance has been 5% and 11% at Sites 1 and 2, respectively, over a two year period. However, the white ceramic coating applied in 1991 at Site 0 degraded by 37% over a three year period. The most significant work on this issue has been performed by two national laboratories [24, 25]. Evidence of mold, mildew and blue-green algae have been observed, particularly on shaded portions of the roof at Site 3. Dirt accumulation was also in evidence, but appeared to be less of a contributing factor to the lowered reflectance.'
polaris.nipr.ac.jp/~penguin/polarbiosci/issues/pdf/1991-Nakatsubo.pdf
The study linked above has a lot of great information on cyanobacteria in general and shows how some forms of gloeocapsa are not nitrogen fixing. Which helps support the possibility that it would need another food source other than photosynthesis if GM is not nitrogen fixing than it cannot produce its own food trough photosynthesis. Therefore we need to find out if this form of Gloeocapsa is nitrogen fixing or not. I have not found a source to find if it is, but have found many studies that say that some of the gloeocapsa or other cayanabacteria are not. It gives reports on field observations of various gloecapsa species living on and inside moss structures, beyond the reach of the stone base the moss resides on. With evidence such as this it would seem remarkable that such a simple organism could not only obtain calcium directly from lime and calcium sources but also be able to pull calcium form another plants fluids or topical structure. Yet at the same time opens the possibility that gloeocapsa magma may not be nitrogen fixing. Of course all this starts making more sense when we see that gloeocapsa magma is not the only gloeocapsa out there. Also cyanabacteria can thrive in any environment on the planet and are may be the most versatile life form on the planet, so it makes sense that this one may have it's own way of life and may actually be misclassified as magma or atrata.
Also this may help Gloeocapsa magma is also referred to as Gloeocapsa atrata in many countries, this will help you find many more studies. www.algaebase.org/search/species/detail/
Look no further than the herbal supplement/nutritional aid field and see where boastful claims can get you. Now they are under FDA scrutiny and have labeling requirements.
Don't get me wrong, I am all about training, teaching, and building a better professional cleaning community. Despite what anyone thinks, " pro staff" is not a paid position, I do this because I love you guys and want to see each and every one of you meet your own personal goals!
This would be a very tough field to study, much less regulate. Think about it, you have roofs that are literally next door to each other, Same age house, same builder, same shingle manufacturer, but some roofs are covered in algae others are at the beginning stages of infestation, some are not infested at all.
Now think about regulation. EPA already hammers some cleaning guys in metro markets with run-off issues. Could you begin to imagine the headaches associated with governmental regulation with our soft wash industry? I think it would be a nightmare. And sadly there would always be the "Chuck in a Truck" (Thanks Eric Owen for the best catch phrase ever!) who would be more than happy to operate outside the law. Honest companies who are in it for the long haul, such at SoftWash Systems authorized guys would really suffer. We would be compelled to "toe the line" while "Chuck" would splash and dash, since he only does this on the side when his lawn care business gets slow.
Its hard to "quantify" what we do with numbers, but it easy to "qualify" what we do with pictures, especially when the homeowner is willing to spend 10-25K on a new roof that is perfectly good, but just covered in GM. Thats who your target market should be!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 07:31:00 PM
I was an ASHI Certified home and building inspector and followed the law and the rules. Chuck in the truck had no license, insurance, training, support and the list goes on. When we (the companies following the rules) challenged the rule makers in our area we were told they cant waste time and money going after all the unlicensed even if we tell them who they are. Going further we were told "We can't fine them because their not licensed"
Yes, laws and rules generally only hurt those who play by the rules.
Matt Jennemann said
May 9, 2014
Thanks for info Bill that's a lot of useful info for us.
Mike Wedge said
May 10, 2014
Hey Bill,
I'm a little confused are you suggesting that the "Inventor of SoftWashing" has been teaching and preaching a bunch of false propaganda with no facts behind it. Are you suggesting that "Shingles now contain limestone as a filler mixed into the aggregate of the shingle. Many of the algae, mildew and bacteria’s utilize this limestone as the base nutrient of their roof ecosystem and begin to feed on it." is in actuallity a false statement?
Are you saying that a lot of people are investing their money and knowledge into a man that has no proof of the claims he makes?
I would like to know because I have been using the teachings of this man to establish my educating of the public. And I am not a snake-oil salesman, Therefore I would like to know if I am lying to the public and blowing smoke up their pipes.
Kind of interesting how their is no responses from this man on this topic.
If I sound pissed off it's because I am. I have been making these claims that he teaches on all my marketing materials, including the newspaper and in person.
Jim Prom said
May 10, 2014
As a general contractor with 28 years of building science under me, one thing we can say is that the GM growth on the roof can add up to 30% of extra solar heat gain in the attic, this is turn coupled with poor or under ventilated roof systems can lead to premature roof failure from excess heat buildup in the attic. In hot climates like Florida, the cleaning can actually drop the attic temp by up to 30%, so the equipment and ductwork in the attic can operate in a cooler space, this will result in extended equipment life and lower cooling bills. Now understand this, it can lower you cooling bill by up to 30%, but you have to understand that the heating and cooling portion of your bill is only a percentage of your actual bill. The customers bill will not drop by 30% but more like 5%. Many salesman will make big claims about energy saving with out understanding what makes up an energy bill.
Thermal imaging cameras were used to verify heat drop in degrees.
Ray Burke said
May 10, 2014
Mike Wedge wrote:
Hey Bill,
I'm a little confused are you suggesting that the "Inventor of SoftWashing" has been teaching and preaching a bunch of false propaganda with no facts behind it. Are you suggesting that "Shingles now contain limestone as a filler mixed into the aggregate of the shingle. Many of the algae, mildew and bacteria’s utilize this limestone as the base nutrient of their roof ecosystem and begin to feed on it." is in actuallity a false statement?
Mike: I think what Bill is saying exactly agrees with what AC says. The calcium (which is limestone) stays moist and thereby give/acts as a comfortable place for the GM to live. However, you don't have to have calcium or limestone present to GM to thrive. I wash enough metal roofs with ZERO limestone that are infested.
Same thing kills them, and they grow in the same pattern, so I would assume yes.
Bill Booz said
May 10, 2014
No Mike you are taking it just a little too far. I think AC is doing his best to use the facts available. AC is not perfect, and cannot do all the research into all the parts involved in our industry. (Bio-chemistry, chemistry, bio-cycles, feeding cycles, roof engineering, sales, business etc. are all different fields and one person can be an expert of all of them, much less stay up to date with current research) Again these statements are made by reputable sources long before AC was repeating it. Ive known him since he started his consulting and have not known him to intentionally lie to people. Many times as an industry or process grows false beliefs slowly get weeded out by research and experience. Personally I believe AC can overstate some things, but is teaching what he believes to be true to the best of his ability.
I am sorry Mike, but remember putting all your eggs in one basket is usually a bad idea. Debate and deduction are keys to enlightenment and wisdom. AC and I debate these topics from time to time and as I have watched his business grow he has learned and changed a lot from the beginning. I would chalk it up to 'growing pains'
Huey Miller said
May 10, 2014
All bacteria and algae have a " favorite food" but bottom line is they grow n organic matter. Algae doesn't grow on metal roofs but on the dust and organic matter on the roof, which could include the paint after it starts to break down . We have all seen algae on windows, it is not eating the glass it is eating the organic film of dust, pollen, ect on the glass.
Bill Booz said
May 10, 2014
That first post was for Mike Wedge.
Mike form MD, actually a few years ago someone did take samples fro various roof surfaces and had them tested. GM among other things was present in all the samples. I don't remember who it was. But again we have to go back to the hard work. (Just letting other people tell you and repeating it is easy) In the studies you will find people testing the contaminants on different surfaces. The first study I linked above does that. These things are hard to find on the web, as the web is flooded with opinions and factual analysis is usually only on one journal or research website. But there is more than just the eggheads papers out there. There are many independent companies that have sampled contaminants on various surfaces for various reasons and answers can be found in those as well. Feel free to email the professors, students and scientists involved. When I joined this type of cleaning I contacted anyone relevant I could. Grace chemical testing facility, Bowie water treatment, Biology grads and professors as well as other roof cleaners such as AC. What I found was the more I understood the things we where doing the better I could make it in my company and the better I could sell it.
I try to share some of this info. I share it with you guys and I share it with AC, other vendors and manufacturers as well.
Bill Booz said
May 10, 2014
Huey the nitrogen fixing forms of cyanobacteria create their own food through photosynthesis. You are correct they still need a nutrient and that is nitrogen. But some can actually pull it from the air. These cyanobacteria have researches baffled as we find so many different kinds. In the second study I listed there are cyanobacteria in there that don't have chlorophyll (considered a necessary part of photosynthesis) but use other ways with or without the nitrogen fixing process. But your right, a small amount of dust or nutrients carried in the rain can be food for a plethora of things to grow.
Huey Miller said
May 10, 2014
Bill
thanks. I never dealt with Cyanobacteria while doing mold remediation indoors. when you stop learning you are dead
Doug G said
May 10, 2014
Personally Bill, I think you take everything too far as you are claiming Mike has done. You are touting studies and saying nothing means anything at the same time. My very first point was "Can algae damage my roof is a question that gets answered differently on a daily basis".
Don't take me wrong here but your posts do appear to play against what many of us believe and the "proof" we have seen. You don't need to believe what we do and we don't need to believe you. The fact is the sky is blue and people argue that point every day as well.
I do love to get opinions and learn from the arguments but for someone "in the industry" to create waves on a public forum just feels wrong.
Michael Derose said
May 10, 2014
We clean the stains off your roof. Your roof will look great. That is what people want to hear and that is mostly what they care about. We are the ones who care more about the science than the homeowner. Just my 1 1/2 cents worth of info. Please don't over think this industry it really isn't that hard.
Michael Derose said
May 10, 2014
Doug you should slow your role on your opinion on bill. Don't forget you are a newbie in the industry and bill has about 8-10 yrs in the game. Bill is a man of facts and that's what he presents. Please put at least 2 yr under your belt before you want to tell someone that's been doing this for years that he is wrong.
Mike Wedge said
May 10, 2014
Aloha Bill and Ray, Thanks for the clarification on this matter. I was really upset yesterday after reading this post. I have been selling our industry and my business exactly the way AC has taught me, therefore for someone to post that these claims we make have no proof or scientific evidence is a big deal to me. I am a man of my word and I will give up my business before I start deceiving the public. I will definitely start selling things in a different manner now. Taking advantage of the advice everyone is sharing.
Thanks again guys for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Mike Wedge
Doug G said
May 10, 2014
Michael Derose wrote:
Doug you should slow your role on your opinion on bill. Don't forget you are a newbie in the industry and bill has about 8-10 yrs in the game. Bill is a man of facts and that's what he presents. Please put at least 2 yr under your belt before you want to tell someone that's been doing this for years that he is wrong.
I am a newbie here and I don't want any conflicts but I am no where near a newbie to business and feel I have the right to defend myself and my beliefs. Never once did I state Bill was doing it wrong. Never once did I say he was doing it wrong. But he did say I needed proof and there was no proof......yet he feels his words are proof over all of the other reputable sources.
All I want is what Mike Wedge wanted...to tell my clients the truth.
AC Lockyer said
May 10, 2014
Hey y'all,
After being out if town a week or so I am spending time with the family. Also more family coming in town for my sons graduation. I respect debate but let's keep debate respectful. I'll pop in on Monday and add to this retort then.
Enjoy your weekend,
AC
Michael Derose said
May 10, 2014
I just don't understand why you guys can't tell the homeowner its dirty and we can clean it and make it look good as new again. You are complicating something that dosent need to be complicated. Does this black stuff ruin the roof?Maybe maybe not! Now moss yes that can cause granule loss.
Just focus on selling your service and the final result.
Doug bill is as much a pioneer as AC is in this biz. I never said you said he was doing it wrong. What I said was you think his info is wrong. If you would do more reading than posting you would see this is not a complicated service. Don't over think it. Act like a Nike and just do it.
Doug G said
May 10, 2014
Michael Derose wrote: Please put at least 2 yr under your belt before you want to tell someonethat's been doing this for yearsthat he is wrong.
Doug bill is as much a pioneer as AC is in this biz. I never said you said he was doing it wrong. What I said was you think his info is wrong. If you would do more reading than posting you would see this is not a complicated service. Don't over think it. Act like a Nike and just do it.
Michael,
I don't want to go back and forth with you any more than Bill. It serves non of us any good. You did say I said he was doing it wrong.......I clarified I never said that. This is also the third topic of which you called me out for posting too much and as a "newbie". I've been in business for over 25 years and have always been successful. I am new to Soft Washing but no where near a newbie when it comes to roofing. I am posting because I know how to grow a business. Look at my topics and pictures. Mostly short sweet and with certain words placed in them.
They don't even need to be written well its just what someone will search for and we can only guess what keywords will bring traffic. So I have no real intention of slowing down my posts because that is just one of the ways I intend to grow my business. If someone jumps on my post and belittles me or tries to undermine me I will defend myself and my post. I personally feel there was no reason for this whole topic to go off course.....I believe Bill should realize we all have different opinions......some support him, some support AC and some support neither.
I feel my post was harmless and accurate to what I believe. If Bill had an issue he could have PM'ed me and avoided all of this but he didn't. Not that he has to but there is a professional courtesy that could have been extended. If we all sit here and bash each other we all lose.
Again, sorry Michael, I don't want a problem with any of you. This topic turned into what is fact and not fact. I never once said Bill was wrong and you did say I said it. The fact is.....people search the internet every single day and they type in all kinds of key words.......I intend to keep posting so they find me and my business grows. I'm sorry I offend you by posting so much but it is my business and my family that causes me to post.....all I can ask is that you respect what I am trying to accomplish....and I will accomplish it.
Michael Derose said
May 10, 2014
Doug if you want to grow your internet presence then post on the blog on your website because it will outrank this site. Ultimatley that is what you want. Do keyword and city targeted posts on your blog. Why would you want another site to outrank your own. That's what your doing.
That's great that your building your business and you have 20+ years experience in business. I'm glad for you. I want you to grow and succeed. Just respect the guys here that have been doing this for years and have good strong businesses already.
Ray Burke said
May 10, 2014
Mike brings up a great point about a blog. If you're going to post a lot it is a great vehicle to severely boost your website presence ! I'm amazed how fast my blog posts show up in Google!
Zach Maynard said
May 11, 2014
Also an occasional promo type post is ok, but not a flood of them. That is why there is an actual blog type section on this forum which is for Certified companies. You are not yet Certified so too many promo posts are frowned upon.
The promo posts are supposed to be a perk of being a Softwash Authorized Company.
Doug G said
May 11, 2014
I am a SoftWash Certified Applicator and did take the test to be such. I also receive many compliments on my posts....and was a part of why I continued.
In the end I still find myself looking at this entire thread and wondering why we even needed to go through this. I found it highly unprofessional for someone to come onto my post and say I no proof.....when the person could not prove me wrong either.......because there have been no studies as he pointed out.
OK, I am tired. I have no desire to fight with anyone and never wanted to in the first place. I feel most of these comments could have been handled in a private message instead of done the way they were. I think most could agree that when you confront someone in public you are asking for a fight.
If you have an issue with someone why not PM or call and avoid all this BS?
John Orrico said
May 11, 2014
I have been hesitant to chime in. When I decided to get into this business I went to the first SoftWashapoolza. It was AC, Bill, and Ray who convinced me I'm doing the right thing. I had and still have a successful insurance restoration company. The education I have received from the three mentioned has giving us the tools to become very suceccfull in the roof and exterior cleaning business. For those of you that are not aware AC, Bill, Ray and Pat (in my opinion) are the pioneers of this business. After leaving the Softwashapoolza I had sent my employees to work with Bill and Morgan for three days. They came back full of education and enthusiasm from what they had learned. Bill is a great educator and a great person.
I hope this is not the beginning of a fourm that I had left to come here.
As Mike said, we do not get into to much of the science. We believe our customers just want a clean roof and exterior. And that is what we do.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
-- Edited by John Orrico on Sunday 11th of May 2014 12:05:58 PM
-- Edited by John Orrico on Sunday 11th of May 2014 12:19:58 PM
Michael Derose said
May 11, 2014
Just like I stated I am not here to fight either but it makes me scratch my head because I don't understand why people want to get so technical to the point where you can talk to a customer and look.at them then they have this blank stare on their face because you just totally lost them on anything you were talking about. Is it because they want to sound like they are smart? Idk. Best policy with customers is to be upfront and honest and show them you are the best company to choose out of the rest.
Zach Maynard said
May 11, 2014
We will get into the science of it on occasion, but that varies from customer to customer. Sometimes its better to keep it short and sweet and others you can tell will absorb everything you say. The biggest thing I do when I meet with a prospect is to tell them and show them why we are the best company around and that we will take care of any situation that they may have.
Doug I told you in this thread about the promo posts because it will save someone elses time in telling you as well, which may happen if I only tell you in a Private Message. Being personally certified is great but has nothing to do with posting tons of promos. People do it on occasion and they are generally told to tone it back a bit.
Now everyone get off the internet and go enjoy Mothers Day! :)
Bill Booz said
May 12, 2014
Doug, I had no idea this was meant to be a promotion on the forum. I thought you where going to post it on your site or a blog. I figured you posted it for some opinions. So I figured it was a good time to point out something a lot of people don't know. I'm an idiot. And I really don't use the forums in this way. Please forgive me.
Guys thanks but Doug is right. It's a ahole move to derail his promo. I now understand your response to my response. It made no sense to me at first. My goal is never to make you look bad in front of potential clients.
Doug G said
May 12, 2014
Bill Booz wrote:
Doug, I had no idea this was meant to be a promotion on the forum. I thought you where going to post it on your site or a blog. I figured you posted it for some opinions. So I figured it was a good time to point out something a lot of people don't know. I'm an idiot. And I really don't use the forums in this way. Please forgive me. Guys thanks but Doug is right. It's a ahole move to derail his promo. I now understand your response to my response. It made no sense to me at first. My goal is never to make you look bad in front of potential clients.
Hey Bill....Thanks.....it all comes to light now. Yes, I've been testing the different forums to see which forums get juice from Google, Bing and Yahoo.....It's why I entered the exact same wording in each post on each forum. I'm not blogging yet because I'm leaving for a 5 week road trip with my wife and 4 kids (two of them are vacation kids but love them just the same) and I honestly don't want any new business.....Don't want people calling when I cant help them for 5 weeks.
I think it's very big of you to come back and clear the air. I was sooooooo not understanding why you ragged on an open public post....I was down right dumbfounded......Now I get it. So let me apologize to you as well. When you first ragged my post I should have PM'd you or called you and asked why you were being a......well......ahole as you so eloquently put it....:} I ragged about others not PM'ing me and I didn't PM you....Please forgive me.
I think a lot of hidden animosity came out for many......this forum is a great place to learn and share. I hope we can all learn from this. There are too many good people on this board.
Can algae damage my roof is a question that gets answered differently on a daily basis, just like as noted above. The question becomes more about the evidence, common sense and the science over the source. Algae is also a somewhat "loose" term. The black streaks are actually Gloeocapsa magma and may resemble "algae" in that they are green, but they are actually a cyanobacteria.
First I think it’s important to understand how a roofing shingle is made. Without getting into the technical side of things the basics of a roofing shingle are:
A base sheet, usually made from fiberglass, is saturated with molten asphalt. This molten asphalt generally consists of a large amount of filler (limestone dust). Then protective granules are added to the top. A very basic explanation but this is how most asphalt roofing shingles are generally made.
Although I can’t stand the way this lady pronounces “Ashphalt” there is a video that helps see the process in action which can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ7VQmgosyU.
I have seen many articles where the authors state that algae do not harm roofing shingles. In those same articles I will see some sort of comment on the alga living off the limestone or “filler” as it is often referred to. I recently read an article by a Chicago reporter who often writes about home improvements. As such you would think his articles would be based more on fact and filled with truth and helpful insight. Instead, I believe, his article was filled with contradictions. I found myself wondering how any homeowner, or commercial property owner, could make an informed decision when faced with such articles……which ultimately inspired me to write this article. As you read on I want you to use your own sense of what really makes sense.
In his article the writer states (referring to the black streaks on your roof):
“It's a harmless algae that's gorging itself on the powdered limestone filler that's often added to the liquid asphalt in shingles to help add weight to them.”
As I read his statement I found myself wondering how the author could find the algae as “harmless” while in the same breath he states “gorging itself on the powdered limestone filler”. So the algae are gorging themselves on my roof but they are harmless? This same author went on to make the statement “……..manufacturers had a problem getting the shingles up to the minimum weight requirement. Someone decided to use powdered limestone dust -- but they didn't realize that it was a delectable food for the tiny algae. Fortunately, the algae doesn't harm the shingles” Again stating the limestone dust was a food source for the algae then stating the algae does not hurt the shingles.
My question to the author of that article would simply be; how can you admit the algae eat the limestone dust yet state they do no harm to the shingle?
First we need to ask: what is the purpose of the limestone dust?
The limestone dust is used, as the author states, to add the needed weight to the shingles. So if the algae eat away the limestone they are therefore removing the needed weight. Further, according to Carmeuse, a company that provides the limestone filler to asphalt roofing manufacturers, the limestone filler is used to increase durability and flame retardancy
(source http://www.carmeusena.com/markets/markets-milled-limestone/roofing-shingles). If you allow the algae to “gorge” on the limestone then you are allowing them to remove the durability and flame retardancy as well….thereby harming the shingles (Not to mention being downright ugly).
Now let us go back to how a roofing shingle is made. Remember that the limestone filler is added to the molten asphalt and then the protective granules are added over the top of this molten layer. So, what do you suppose will happen if the limestone dust is eaten away from the manufactured asphalt shingle?
What happens when you take a bite out of an apple? You leave a hole in the apple.
What happens when the algae take a bite out of the limestone? They leave a hole in the shingle.
What happens when you put sprinkles on top of an ice cream cone? You get a delicious treat.
What if you don’t like sprinkles and you eat all of the ice cream? The sprinkles fall to the ground….much like your protective granules.
So let me ask you one final question: Can algae damage my roof?
Cajun Soft Wash serves the Greater Baton Rouge metro area with safe – no pressure, roof and exterior cleaning.
-- Edited by Doug Gore on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 08:53:04 AM
Nice work Doug,
Very informative and easy to understand. I can see why Cajun Soft Wash is quickly becoming the premier SoftWash company for Louisiana.
Bill......as with anything else, there needs to be enough attention placed on any issue before the "studies" are done. The evidence is there every single day and as you pointed out there are a lot of reputable sources stating gloeocapsa magma eats limestone......which puts me at the same point I made to you before.
1+1 generally = 2
That being said I still softwash buildings. Just don't push roof cleaning like I used to
Hopefully they let me clean the roof for them rather than replace it. Its not horrible and doesn't leak so I'm hopeful.
One of the things I tell my customers about the potential damage is something like this ... " think of the algae on your roof like a moldy loaf of bread; it starts a little green and then all of a sudden other different type things pop-up on there. You get the splotchy white moldy spots, the deep green circles, golden collored fungi, etc. Essentially the roof is not too different in that the GLeocaspa Magma creates a nice warm, moist environment that allows a plethora of other biological lifeforms to grow there...lichen, mold, mildew, etc."
There is absolute documented fact pictures out there that the lichens can and will cause degranulaztion.
Now that being said, i try not to oversell roof cleaning as "adding years to the life" or " saving" or even "killing mold". Due to licensure issues I really want his field to be though of as a cosmetic fix. In florida, mold abetment is a huge field, and one that is strictly licensed. I would never want to make a claim that we kill mold, even though we do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: we need to be somewhat careful about making claims of what we do, what causes the issues we cure, etc. One of the unintended and unwanted consequences of these actions could suddenly be unwanted/unneeded regulation of our industry. Which then opens up a whole new can of worms. The "fly by nighters" will still operate outside the law, and the honest, reputable companies such as ours will be faced with a whole new level of bearucracy/regualtion/ rules.
Be careful of what we claim and providing too much information as to what we do. Just even the heading of this thread could be taken the wrong way...."does algae damage my roof?" if the answer is YES, and we are killing that algae to stop damage, in essence "repairing a roof", then I could make the argument that we should be licensed roofers to carry out our trade. I don't think we want that!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:34:54 AM
Bill will obviously argue this thing to death and he is in the industry. It is a portion of my argument.....It's answered differently on a daily bases. I can only provide opinions by respected and reputable sources but in the end it wont change any of his views.
Now, the way Ray takes this on is just another reason Ray Burke Rocks!
Thanks for the insight Ray!
Amen to this Ray.
My 2 cents on this subject - I just did some work for a gentleman who's roof was 30 years old (3-tab asphalt shingle roof) - and his roof was immaculate. No granule loss, no nothing. It seriously almost looked new.
When I asked him about it, he said he has been spraying bleach on it 1/x year every year since he put the roof on it. His next door neighbor had a different story on his roof, with the roof edges curled, shingles cracked, and moss had taken over more than 50% of the roof. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or peer reviewed studies to understand the concept of what decomposers do to ANY surface they grow on. Decomposers are designed to break down materials back into nature.
We should undersell anytime we can, for not only the reasons Ray mentioned - but it is overall better for your business. We use our experiences and the experiences of others to build our confidence that what we offer is a worthwhile service - and that confidence also translates into our pitch to a customer.
It is when fly-by-nighters make large claims that leaves a customer (or any naysayer) needing "proof" by scientists to back it up.
-- Edited by Brandon Vaughn on Friday 9th of May 2014 12:08:27 PM
Look no further than the herbal supplement/nutritional aid field and see where boastful claims can get you. Now they are under FDA scrutiny and have labeling requirements.
Don't get me wrong, I am all about training, teaching, and building a better professional cleaning community. Despite what anyone thinks, " pro staff" is not a paid position, I do this because I love you guys and want to see each and every one of you meet your own personal goals!
This would be a very tough field to study, much less regulate. Think about it, you have roofs that are literally next door to each other, Same age house, same builder, same shingle manufacturer, but some roofs are covered in algae others are at the beginning stages of infestation, some are not infested at all.
Now think about regulation. EPA already hammers some cleaning guys in metro markets with run-off issues. Could you begin to imagine the headaches associated with governmental regulation with our soft wash industry? I think it would be a nightmare. And sadly there would always be the "Chuck in a Truck" (Thanks Eric Owen for the best catch phrase ever!) who would be more than happy to operate outside the law. Honest companies who are in it for the long haul, such at SoftWash Systems authorized guys would really suffer. We would be compelled to "toe the line" while "Chuck" would splash and dash, since he only does this on the side when his lawn care business gets slow.
Its hard to "quantify" what we do with numbers, but it easy to "qualify" what we do with pictures, especially when the homeowner is willing to spend 10-25K on a new roof that is perfectly good, but just covered in GM. Thats who your target market should be!
-- Edited by Ray Burke on Friday 9th of May 2014 07:31:00 PM
I appreciate the exchange of ideas in this thread. What we will take away, is not to oversell the biology of what is going on, but the fact when we are done your roof will look like new.
We have every confidence that a lot of homeowners we work for are happy to know the roof damage has been stopped for now, and along the way the curb appeal has been restored to their homes.
Bill, you are correct in pointing out this process happens on other surfaces too, including concrete surfaces. The evidence that this attack does destroy the appearance of shingle roofs and resulting granule loss is visible when lichen etc is removed, makes the conclusion we are arresting a process that does damage to shingles and other surfaces hard to ignore when we all see it on a daily basis.
Besides, it is downright ugly before and so much more pleasing to the homeowners when the ugly has been removed.
If the only benefit our neighbors are getting is pride of ownership of a clean home back, that is a good day's work.
Besides, it is downright ugly hanging on everything in town and dirtying the overall appearance of our towns and cities.
Some of best moments in sales is when I get to sell the next door neighbor, not on science but the fact their neighbors roof and house shined up like a new copper penny.
All they know is they think it is downright ugly and then want it gone! And now, they know who to call!
Folks trust PAsoftwash to restore their homes curb appeal today!
Besides, their homes are beautiful when we leave, and that is why they love us!
Thank you for giving us the tools and knowledge to make this possible in our little part of Western PA!
Doug I am sorry you feel that way. I think you may have perceived some form of negative attitude from my posts when my intention was only to present the things I have learned through a lot of hard work gathering credible information. It grows on roofs with calcium fillers is only a correlation until proven otherwise. The Earth also appears flat and for a long time everyone believed it was, but due to the process of trying to disprove what we believe to be true we know the truth, that it is round. I know that sounds silly but it's really how we prove things scientifically. Originally I challenged you to present some actual evidence that algae needs calcium or lime as a food source. I have taken that challenge on myself for almost five years. Will you accept that humans are naturally biased to believe what we want, and do the due diligence to create proof for your belief? I don't want to argue with you at all. I want you to challenge yourself to fully understand what your claiming.
Also if I did not mention this before. Calcium is absorbent and holds moisture longer than nonporous surfaces. Due to this it may be feasible that the shingle made with calcium could hold moisture longer than one not made with calcium. This could potentially promote the growth of photosynthetic organisms. Further research to see if the calcium in a shingle is actually exposed to moisture and if a shingle made with calcium actually retains moisture longer than one not made with calcium needs to be conducted in order to better understand if this is possible. This experiment could easily be done by any of us and would be a step in the right direction to find out if these claims are true.
Here are a few resources:
www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/html/FSEC-PF-293-95/
In this field research report, the researchers are testing solar reflectivity of various roof coatings. In the paragraph I have copied and pasted they where testing a corrugated metal roof with an elastometric coating. This type of coating for a roof is generally composed of Urethane.
Quoted from the above source: 'Researchers have been re-examining the roof solar reflectance of the coated field sites every six months. The observed degradation in solar reflectance has been 5% and 11% at Sites 1 and 2, respectively, over a two year period. However, the white ceramic coating applied in 1991 at Site 0 degraded by 37% over a three year period. The most significant work on this issue has been performed by two national laboratories [24, 25]. Evidence of mold, mildew and blue-green algae have been observed, particularly on shaded portions of the roof at Site 3. Dirt accumulation was also in evidence, but appeared to be less of a contributing factor to the lowered reflectance.'
polaris.nipr.ac.jp/~penguin/polarbiosci/issues/pdf/1991-Nakatsubo.pdf
The study linked above has a lot of great information on cyanobacteria in general and shows how some forms of gloeocapsa are not nitrogen fixing. Which helps support the possibility that it would need another food source other than photosynthesis if GM is not nitrogen fixing than it cannot produce its own food trough photosynthesis. Therefore we need to find out if this form of Gloeocapsa is nitrogen fixing or not. I have not found a source to find if it is, but have found many studies that say that some of the gloeocapsa or other cayanabacteria are not. It gives reports on field observations of various gloecapsa species living on and inside moss structures, beyond the reach of the stone base the moss resides on. With evidence such as this it would seem remarkable that such a simple organism could not only obtain calcium directly from lime and calcium sources but also be able to pull calcium form another plants fluids or topical structure. Yet at the same time opens the possibility that gloeocapsa magma may not be nitrogen fixing. Of course all this starts making more sense when we see that gloeocapsa magma is not the only gloeocapsa out there. Also cyanabacteria can thrive in any environment on the planet and are may be the most versatile life form on the planet, so it makes sense that this one may have it's own way of life and may actually be misclassified as magma or atrata.
Also this may help Gloeocapsa magma is also referred to as Gloeocapsa atrata in many countries, this will help you find many more studies.
www.algaebase.org/search/species/detail/
This one is pure cyanobacteria nerd out enjoy :)
www.pdn.ac.lk/cjsbs/abstract/40.2/1%20%2040.2.1%20Cyanobacteria.pdf
I was an ASHI Certified home and building inspector and followed the law and the rules. Chuck in the truck had no license, insurance, training, support and the list goes on. When we (the companies following the rules) challenged the rule makers in our area we were told they cant waste time and money going after all the unlicensed even if we tell them who they are. Going further we were told "We can't fine them because their not licensed"
Yes, laws and rules generally only hurt those who play by the rules.
Hey Bill,
I'm a little confused are you suggesting that the "Inventor of SoftWashing" has been teaching and preaching a bunch of false propaganda with no facts behind it. Are you suggesting that "Shingles now contain limestone as a filler mixed into the aggregate of the shingle. Many of the algae, mildew and bacteria’s utilize this limestone as the base nutrient of their roof ecosystem and begin to feed on it." is in actuallity a false statement?
Are you saying that a lot of people are investing their money and knowledge into a man that has no proof of the claims he makes?
I would like to know because I have been using the teachings of this man to establish my educating of the public. And I am not a snake-oil salesman, Therefore I would like to know if I am lying to the public and blowing smoke up their pipes.
Kind of interesting how their is no responses from this man on this topic.
If I sound pissed off it's because I am. I have been making these claims that he teaches on all my marketing materials, including the newspaper and in person.
Thermal imaging cameras were used to verify heat drop in degrees.
Mike: I think what Bill is saying exactly agrees with what AC says. The calcium (which is limestone) stays moist and thereby give/acts as a comfortable place for the GM to live. However, you don't have to have calcium or limestone present to GM to thrive. I wash enough metal roofs with ZERO limestone that are infested.
I am sorry Mike, but remember putting all your eggs in one basket is usually a bad idea. Debate and deduction are keys to enlightenment and wisdom. AC and I debate these topics from time to time and as I have watched his business grow he has learned and changed a lot from the beginning. I would chalk it up to 'growing pains'
All bacteria and algae have a " favorite food" but bottom line is they grow n organic matter. Algae doesn't grow on metal roofs but on the dust and organic matter on the roof, which could include the paint after it starts to break down . We have all seen algae on windows, it is not eating the glass it is eating the organic film of dust, pollen, ect on the glass.
Mike form MD, actually a few years ago someone did take samples fro various roof surfaces and had them tested. GM among other things was present in all the samples. I don't remember who it was. But again we have to go back to the hard work. (Just letting other people tell you and repeating it is easy) In the studies you will find people testing the contaminants on different surfaces. The first study I linked above does that. These things are hard to find on the web, as the web is flooded with opinions and factual analysis is usually only on one journal or research website. But there is more than just the eggheads papers out there. There are many independent companies that have sampled contaminants on various surfaces for various reasons and answers can be found in those as well. Feel free to email the professors, students and scientists involved. When I joined this type of cleaning I contacted anyone relevant I could. Grace chemical testing facility, Bowie water treatment, Biology grads and professors as well as other roof cleaners such as AC. What I found was the more I understood the things we where doing the better I could make it in my company and the better I could sell it.
I try to share some of this info. I share it with you guys and I share it with AC, other vendors and manufacturers as well.
Bill
thanks. I never dealt with Cyanobacteria while doing mold remediation indoors. when you stop learning you are dead
Personally Bill, I think you take everything too far as you are claiming Mike has done. You are touting studies and saying nothing means anything at the same time. My very first point was "Can algae damage my roof is a question that gets answered differently on a daily basis".
Don't take me wrong here but your posts do appear to play against what many of us believe and the "proof" we have seen. You don't need to believe what we do and we don't need to believe you. The fact is the sky is blue and people argue that point every day as well.
I do love to get opinions and learn from the arguments but for someone "in the industry" to create waves on a public forum just feels wrong.
Aloha Bill and Ray, Thanks for the clarification on this matter. I was really upset yesterday after reading this post. I have been selling our industry and my business exactly the way AC has taught me, therefore for someone to post that these claims we make have no proof or scientific evidence is a big deal to me. I am a man of my word and I will give up my business before I start deceiving the public. I will definitely start selling things in a different manner now. Taking advantage of the advice everyone is sharing.
Thanks again guys for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Mike Wedge
I am a newbie here and I don't want any conflicts but I am no where near a newbie to business and feel I have the right to defend myself and my beliefs.
Never once did I state Bill was doing it wrong. Never once did I say he was doing it wrong. But he did say I needed proof and there was no proof......yet he feels his words are proof over all of the other reputable sources.
All I want is what Mike Wedge wanted...to tell my clients the truth.
After being out if town a week or so I am spending time with the family. Also more family coming in town for my sons graduation. I respect debate but let's keep debate respectful. I'll pop in on Monday and add to this retort then.
Enjoy your weekend,
AC
Just focus on selling your service and the final result.
Doug bill is as much a pioneer as AC is in this biz. I never said you said he was doing it wrong. What I said was you think his info is wrong. If you would do more reading than posting you would see this is not a complicated service. Don't over think it. Act like a Nike and just do it.
Michael,
I don't want to go back and forth with you any more than Bill. It serves non of us any good. You did say I said he was doing it wrong.......I clarified I never said that. This is also the third topic of which you called me out for posting too much and as a "newbie". I've been in business for over 25 years and have always been successful. I am new to Soft Washing but no where near a newbie when it comes to roofing. I am posting because I know how to grow a business. Look at my topics and pictures. Mostly short sweet and with certain words placed in them.
They don't even need to be written well its just what someone will search for and we can only guess what keywords will bring traffic. So I have no real intention of slowing down my posts because that is just one of the ways I intend to grow my business. If someone jumps on my post and belittles me or tries to undermine me I will defend myself and my post. I personally feel there was no reason for this whole topic to go off course.....I believe Bill should realize we all have different opinions......some support him, some support AC and some support neither.
I feel my post was harmless and accurate to what I believe. If Bill had an issue he could have PM'ed me and avoided all of this but he didn't. Not that he has to but there is a professional courtesy that could have been extended. If we all sit here and bash each other we all lose.
Again, sorry Michael, I don't want a problem with any of you. This topic turned into what is fact and not fact. I never once said Bill was wrong and you did say I said it. The fact is.....people search the internet every single day and they type in all kinds of key words.......I intend to keep posting so they find me and my business grows. I'm sorry I offend you by posting so much but it is my business and my family that causes me to post.....all I can ask is that you respect what I am trying to accomplish....and I will accomplish it.
That's great that your building your business and you have 20+ years experience in business. I'm glad for you. I want you to grow and succeed. Just respect the guys here that have been doing this for years and have good strong businesses already.
The promo posts are supposed to be a perk of being a Softwash Authorized Company.
I am a SoftWash Certified Applicator and did take the test to be such. I also receive many compliments on my posts....and was a part of why I continued.
In the end I still find myself looking at this entire thread and wondering why we even needed to go through this. I found it highly unprofessional for someone to come onto my post and say I no proof.....when the person could not prove me wrong either.......because there have been no studies as he pointed out.
OK, I am tired. I have no desire to fight with anyone and never wanted to in the first place. I feel most of these comments could have been handled in a private message instead of done the way they were. I think most could agree that when you confront someone in public you are asking for a fight.
If you have an issue with someone why not PM or call and avoid all this BS?
I have been hesitant to chime in. When I decided to get into this business I went to the first SoftWashapoolza. It was AC, Bill, and Ray who convinced me I'm doing the right thing. I had and still have a successful insurance restoration company. The education I have received from the three mentioned has giving us the tools to become very suceccfull in the roof and exterior cleaning business. For those of you that are not aware AC, Bill, Ray and Pat (in my opinion) are the pioneers of this business. After leaving the Softwashapoolza I had sent my employees to work with Bill and Morgan for three days. They came back full of education and enthusiasm from what they had learned. Bill is a great educator and a great person.
I hope this is not the beginning of a fourm that I had left to come here.
As Mike said, we do not get into to much of the science. We believe our customers just want a clean roof and exterior. And that is what we do.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
-- Edited by John Orrico on Sunday 11th of May 2014 12:05:58 PM
-- Edited by John Orrico on Sunday 11th of May 2014 12:19:58 PM
Doug I told you in this thread about the promo posts because it will save someone elses time in telling you as well, which may happen if I only tell you in a Private Message. Being personally certified is great but has nothing to do with posting tons of promos. People do it on occasion and they are generally told to tone it back a bit.
Now everyone get off the internet and go enjoy Mothers Day! :)
Hey Bill....Thanks.....it all comes to light now. Yes, I've been testing the different forums to see which forums get juice from Google, Bing and Yahoo.....It's why I entered the exact same wording in each post on each forum. I'm not blogging yet because I'm leaving for a 5 week road trip with my wife and 4 kids (two of them are vacation kids but love them just the same) and I honestly don't want any new business.....Don't want people calling when I cant help them for 5 weeks.
I think it's very big of you to come back and clear the air. I was sooooooo not understanding why you ragged on an open public post....I was down right dumbfounded......Now I get it. So let me apologize to you as well. When you first ragged my post I should have PM'd you or called you and asked why you were being a......well......ahole as you so eloquently put it....:} I ragged about others not PM'ing me and I didn't PM you....Please forgive me.
I think a lot of hidden animosity came out for many......this forum is a great place to learn and share. I hope we can all learn from this. There are too many good people on this board.
Thanks again Bill.